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SevenDevils
 
   
  
 
 
Since: 06-11-02
From: US
Since last post: 8197 days
Last activity: 8183 days
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Greetings to everyone on the board, I do alot of forum reading, but never been much of a poster, seems there are always more people out there looking to make someone feel stupid/incompetent, or just plain bad, because those select few hateful people think they know more than everyone else. Personally, I'd rather just read and see what comes from it all. But I wanted to say something about this entire Gravity, Sasami, RO thing, and I hope you all will not mind reading it.
First of all, alot of you seem to bash others that voice opinions on how Gravity runs its company, saying " it's beta, and its free, why complain, you don't have to pay for it!", although most times, its nowhere near that nice. I partly agree with that idealogy, on the simple fact that yes its "BETA", and problems do, can, and usually will arise no matter how much foresight is applied, doesn't anyone know who murphy is? 
Also, I look at Gravity, the "Business", as an up and coming group of individuals with a huge idea, a means to get it done, and the ability to succeed. Alot of companies have started out JUST LIKE THAT, and have made a name for themselves, and a buttload of cash to boot, companies like Wizards of the Coast, they were the FIRST company *I think* to to come out with a collectable card game, Richard Garfield came up with the concept when he was in college, him and a few friends made up the rules, did some messin around with cards *playing cards, and pieces mind you* just because they thought it would be fun. Now look at them, they released M:TG, and a small hurricane insued, raising an up and coming wannabe, to a internationally known gaming corperation.
Another company, Verant Interactive, back in the days of beta, *yes i beta tested during phase 4*, almost NOBODY I knew personally, or socially, even had heard of everquest, now they are a part of the Sony Corperation, HUGE, and brag 400-500 thousand active accounts, hell I myself, played for nearly 4 years. The big problem with that game and/or the company, is that they "listened" to players and their ideas, but never really DID anything with em, till they actually got some decent competition, then a world of changes went into affect, because the "business" of everquest, the money making side, realized they had a good shot to lose that business.
Gravity, they are trying to fish for sharks using 5lb line, a few sinkers, and a bobber. Americans have always been the hardest region based statistic to please in ANYTHING. Just look at commercials here, and you see what I mean. Also, Americans in general, not all mind you, are selfish, egomaniacal, power hungry deviants. This is seen everyday in my life, where I work, where I live, where I shop, you name it, because everyone has the same idea to be the best. I humbly think thats not a bad way to think, but most people go about being the best, by becoming the worst. Gravity I think, should have done at least some basic statistical referrence checks, inquired to other companies, ANYTHING, to get a better grasp on what they were fishing for, because I think they just got caught completely off guard, and have no idea how to proceed. I mean, I do not know much about the korean way of life, but I do know a bit about the japanese culture, so I will use it as a reference. The way the eastern half of the world thinks, is almost completely different from stateside, when they set out to do something, they stick to it till it is DONE!, period, end of story. however, Americans are generally lazy, procrastinators, we always do things in chunks, and it eventually gets done. Also we want it now, right now, not later, if we dont get it our way right away, then it sucks, and we scream and shout. *though this can be said for people in general, just not all people*
So Gravity has this plan, and the idealogy of its employees, are to see this plan through, no matter what... Then comes along ole murphy, drops in a few snags, adds restless natives, and screaming children, BOOM, you got what is now happening. I have seen all the postings from this board, to the boards at Pak0, and Ragnarok Source, and a few others about how Gravity doesn't care about us. I disagree, I think they do care, honestly, they are a business, wanting to make money from us, they HAVE to care. Its just that if they don't care about us the way we WANT them to, then they suck, no matter what anyone says, and that is how most players look at it now. Also over time, bitter runs deeper, get a bad spot on the apple, after a time the whole apple is ruined, get the idea. If you hear/see people being hateful, it will usually wear on you, no matter how sweet, kind, or what have you, a person you are. This is true in everything, "Misery loves company" as it goes. *sorry I seem to use alot of sayings hehe*
Now alot of problems abound in RO right now, hackers bots, you name it, and yes it is the practice of beta to weed these out and fix them, but as I stated above, Gravity has its own agenda, its own plans on how things will go, after all it is their game, no matter what. So on that note, I say sit back, and enjoy what you got, and stop complaining and whining about what you don't have. Sorry that last comment wasn't meant at anyone specific, basicly generalized, Im not out to get flamed any at all
As for Sasami, I don't think anyone has any right to comment on that whole situation, unless all the cards are shown, Im not saying anything bad about her, I have never seen her act in any way other than trying to help everyone else, but just because a person isn't, doesn't mean they can't. and I will leave off at that, I have to goto work, been typing way to long hehe
Sorry if my rambling offends anyone, it isn't meant to, I just don't see any point to people getting angry with things they can't change anyways.
Scott |
Makoto
Moderator
 
Since: 02-19-02
From: England
Since last post: 7975 days
Last activity: 7962 days
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*shakes your hand* very good 
i agree , much of what you say is true
...i would say more at this point, but im very very tired, and my brain is using most of what energy it has left just trying to keep my eyes open, so im off to bed |
Chibi-Bar
Moderator
 
Since: 04-16-02
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7660 days
Last activity: 7616 days
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I have to agree with what you say no offense taken... I'm just curious what is the "secret agenda" that they keep three type of server at different patches.. at least kRO and jRO are pretty close to each other.. while the eRO are pretty far behind in the "patches update of new stuff"
also it is matter of their type of approach.. of saying.. yea.. we will fix this and that.. but never got around to it.. I think that is what made a lot of people upset.
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Chibi-Bar
Your Local Merchant on Chaos/Loki |
MingShun
 
Since: 05-10-02
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7615 days
Last activity: 7615 days
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Totally unrelated, but I think Wizards released too many magic versions in a short time...You don't really hear of avid collectors looking for the Black Lotus card anymore...
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Wish I had a sig pic.... |
DaiSHi
Moderator
 
Since: 05-03-02
From: California
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7567 days
Last activity: 7567 days
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Originally posted by MingShun
Totally unrelated, but I think Wizards released too many magic versions in a short time...You don't really hear of avid collectors looking for the Black Lotus card anymore...
i haven't even played in ages. i disassembled my decks, ready to sell on ebay. but im' too lazy and i doubt i'd make much money...
as to the original post, i agree with many of the arguments... but i think gravity is taking on too big of a job... trying to please 3 different groups: koreans, japanese, other... i'm sure they'd love to please their country the most... so we might have the lowest priority... i just wished they'd spread the love a little..
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Loki: DaiSHi 48/35 swordman, H.O.L.Y.Merchant OC, Robbin'Hood 37/27 Thief, HOLYFistsOfFury 18/12 Puncholyte
11865 exp and counting... || good luck to everyone who has finals
 Flower girls are the cutest... but not as cute as my Tina |
SevenDevils
Since: 06-11-02
From: US
Since last post: 8197 days
Last activity: 8183 days
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Ok well my personal opinion about 3 different servers, for 3 different cultures, cuz if you look at it from a certain angle, thats the biggest problem. Its just like all the Thai players on an english based server, all of the usual arguements are english speaking person against an non english speaking person, namely Thai, or vice verse, it will always come down to lack of communication. Most people, including myself, if and when a situation arises, where you cannot get your point of view across to another person/meduim/group, whether it is to explain how you feel about something, or just trying to politely say go away, you will and there is no if and's or but's about it, frusteration sets in, you get angry, and lose all sight of the original problem, because this gap of understanding just created a new more posing issue. Seriously, it has happened to all of us, whether we like to admit we got angry or not, its just basic human nature.
Hmm I kinda side tracked, sorry I tend to ramble hehe. Anyways my point was that either Gravity didn't understand the task they were setting out to do, basicly blinded by the glory of it, so to speak, or they assumed the american base would be, or is likely to be, similiar to the korean base, and japanese base *both of which are very similiar*. Now, I think this is more having to do with the CS of it all though, that in the beginning, they have VERY good relations with the random few alpha testers that WERE american/english based, and then they opened up beta, spend the word, and WOOOOOOSH!! a flood of adolesent, immature kiddies flooded in for a *FREE* ride. So as time progresses, the average american child is TEN times impatient as an adult, they are generally spoiled in this age, get what they want, and have never been told otherwise. So even with big flashy letters stamped into their collective brains stating " THIS IS A BETA TEST, NOT A FINAL PRODUCT" they are still expecting it to be like the rest of their lives, ready and waiting and always the way they like it. Now me, I was raised a bit different, I'm 25 yrs old, I turn 26 on the 20th of this month, and I clearly remember each and every time I stepped far enough outta line that my dad beat my a$$, and sure I was angry at him them, but it taught me to respect alot of things, and even to do as I'm told, even when I don't want to, because its always for the best in the end.
Anyways I sidetracked again, so this rush of tiny boppers came pouring in to "test" the game. Content for only a short while, most kids are, and some adults sadly, soon the complaining started, which honestly, complaining in a beta IS the right thing to do, as long as its not repeated over, and over, and over, and over... I'm sure you get my point. Soon after the complaints go unanswered apparently, or inadequtely (sp?), you get the add on of the HAXXOR LEET, that must break everything just cuz they can, you see this mentality in your average quaker, UTer, or halflifer, you know the type, the ones wanting godly powers through unfair means, because they have no real life and so they make up for the lack of "size", forgive my pun, by ruining everyone elses fun. Another good example are those ppl that make diablo trainers, and things like that. Sure I agree somewhat, after a game gets boring, especially something single playerish, I even use cheats, its new, its fun again, but not for online games. I play online, not to become elite, but to grow, evolve, watch my character go from a scrauny lvl 1 weakling, into a mean green fighting machine, but I tend to get bored somewhere inbetween and just make something else
So Gravity was caught off guard not by the amount of players, not by their lack of abilities, but by the TYPE of player they were attracting with an open beta. Its like if a person from the middle of average white picket fenced urbania, with the 2.3 kids, a cat and a dog, suddenly got thrust into the middle of the bronx and forced to deal with it, not a pretty sight I think. I tend to use too many metaphors, I'm honestly glad that most of you on this forum are intelligent enough to understand them hehe.
Ok, I missed something in there, it being the technical aspect of why Gravity did 3 different servers, I think it is just because they either did NOT know how, or they have planned something else, I can only speculate.
Me, personally, I absolutely LOVE the entire concept behind RO, it is fresh, new and I can say I have never seen anything like this done in a MMO vision. I'm a huge fan of final fantasy tactics, shining force series. ogre battle, and tactics ogre, and the main reason I got into playing RO, was I saw how similair it was to those types of games, also the cutesy aspect is SO much better than what you see standard in at least the states, not sure about the rest of the world. My list of gaming online progressed from UO when it first released, played it for 2 yrs, got sick of the crap, left. Stumbled onto the beta phase of everquest, got started in it during phase 4, heck i even have my lil grey EQ beta disk as a momento of my first real beta, means alot to me, I'm sure a few of you can relate. Anyways I stayed in EQ for almost 4 yrs, I saw alot of great things get screwed along the way by profiteering gluttons during that time. EQ had HUGE potential IMO, but sadly, greed is need, and everyone knows the golden rule. After that I beta'd AO, what a piece of crap lol. Ok sorry I see I'm rambling again, moving on...
DaiSHi, MingShun - I started playing M:TG around the end of the dark, back when people played to have fun, hell I even sunk 100$ into it on that first day, not because I wanted uber cards, but I wanted variety in deck making, that was always my joy, compared to actual playing. Nowadays, WotC is a money grubbin son of a whore, but you can't blame them, as with any business, your in it to make money. Most people that I assosiated with back right before I gave my cards away, were obsessed with card protectors, binders, and all the likes, pieces of cardboard worth more than their weight in gold... go figure.
Oh another thing Id like to touch on, and I am planning on emailing Christy on this and seeing what she responds like. As most of you know, there are alot of misconceptions, rumors and otherwise opinion based posts floating around, the whole joe the dude thing, this thing with Sasami. What bothers me about all of it, is that its ALL hearsay, I'm more like a fact person, Ihate bad news more than another I know, but not knowing ANYTHING is almost unbearable. So everyone reads what is posted BY joe the dude, and Sasami, now I'm not saying its true or false, what either of them said, but aside from them telling us what THEY want us to know, the rest is left to our own imaginations. But, like I said, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any of that was said by either side, unless I see the any or all of the original emails in full. Too many people speculate about this, causing alot more problems than if Sasami and JtD just kept this backlash to themselves.
Sasami, if you ever get a chance to read my posts, I am sorry I never got a chance to meet or at least banter over some posts. You seem genuine in wanting to help the community of RO, and sincerity is a rare quality in most these days. However, I must agree with the side of Gravity on the use of external and/or 3rd party software. This is not to be mean or anything to you, its just that I have personally seen numerous "good" intentions, fall into the wrong hands, EQ assist, a good program for everquest, not allowed because its still technically an advantage not everyone can or would have the ability to use, UO had NUMEROUS decent helpful programs, UO was also able to be run in a windowed mode, big big downfall, allows alot of things, still, even the good was turned away. its the same with ALL online games if you look at it. The reason why is NOT because its a 3rd party program, not because it gives users certain users advantages, its because it isn't possible to give ALL users that same advantage. Well, thats why I think most aren't allowed.
Ok big post again, sorry, hope some of you read till the bottom hehe, just my 2 cents worth.
Scott
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Sironin
 
Since: 05-17-02
Since last post: 8141 days
Last activity: 7825 days
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just a quick comment on a good reason why the three servers are at different patch levels.
Enter the mind of a programmer ^^. Each server represents a different language and contains a whole seperate set of graphics (as far as text and lettering and descriptions) for each language server. These would have to be updated seperately by translaters, otherwise we'd just all be playing in Korean right now.
My theory is that the Japanese translaters are faster at translating from Korean to Japanese than whoever is translating from Korean to English. Don't forget, everytime they release a patch for us that contains text updates, it's because their translaters finished more of the text their artists or programmers handed them. The only other time Ebeta will get updates is when they don't affect text at all. (because for the most part, internal programming is largely native Korean. Check out .grf directory structure sometime...)
Thus always Koreans first (native programmers)
and then whoever translates faster...
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MingShun
Since: 05-10-02
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7615 days
Last activity: 7615 days
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I shouldn't be saying this, but maybe the Japanese have more of a work ethic
That's an interesting thought though. I study Japanese for fun; but I'm not involved with Korean...so I can't tell you if that's probably right. It seems to work though.
I'm Chinese BTW, just so you don't make an incorrect assumption.
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Wish I had a sig pic.... |
BakedBeans
 
Since: 05-03-02
From: Vancouver
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 8031 days
Last activity: 7961 days
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Actually, from an *experienced* programmers point of view... ... what Gravity did when porting multiple languages was probably finish the korean code up to a certain point, then copy + paste it all into the english project. They probably even copy + paste server code as well =/
Unless you didn't know already, they don't have the most experienced programmers out there, otherwise at least temporary anti-bot solutions would've been made already 
In fact, this solution would get rid of all the bots out there for a good while:
Shut down the servers
Patch the server and client
Prevent old client connections (i.e. must have latest patch to connect), which works with a check inside Ragnarok.exe (so latest match is mandatory, even -1rag1 won't work)
Exchange the command value for "logout" with "ban me" so if an older client tried to connect, it would actually be asking the server to ban it :o
but in ragnarok.exe's case, it first asks the server what minimum version it has to be to connect.
If the client was/is programmed to ask the server "can I play with an out-of-date patch?" then this would work because bot programs don't ask that.
Although, with this method you'd most certainly see a drastic drop in the population  |
SevenDevils
Since: 06-11-02
From: US
Since last post: 8197 days
Last activity: 8183 days
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Well I took an interest in the overall culture, and language of the Japanese, and I'm not sure how true I am with this opinion, but the Japanese have always looked at things ALOT differently than Americans. All school children learn both Japanese, and English languages as a basic lesson plan, *This is actually true for ALOT of other cultures*, also the culture there is incredibly old compared to the US, being a whopping 400yrs in the making, and most of that time was spent fighting with ourselves, or other countries for our independance. We as a whole take many things for granted. Japan as a whole, is very profession minded, seriously, most people that are japanese I have personally spoke with, are in college for some sort of technical field, computers, or networking and communications. Most Americans, are not college minded or in college, and even having a degree is not a big help here, just not enough of those kinds of jobs in middle america.
On the othr hand, japan is incredibly small in landmass size compared to the US, but on a ratio of comparison, they have the same if not more for population size, and very high density. Yet they still manage to have employment opportunities for the college graduates, because most of the companies in that area are very technical in nature. Hell, how often do you get a TV, DVD player, or game console, that says "Made in America"? Also look at the best RPG style games to hit the market, they sold more copies at a faster rate no matter the title, first and foremost in the eastern region. They always get first dibs by about 6 months on anything new, because its created or engineered in that region.
I don't know if that made much sense, I'm really tired, but I hope it did
Also, I agree with the programming theory by Sironin, if gaming console software is created and distributed there first, why would this be any different?
You know, the more I think about it, the more I actually think we are blessed to have this beta at all, the reason being, the Koreans, Japanese, and Thai's have ALWAYS been more into RPG style games, most Americans are into the FPS style, with a 3rd if that being devoted RPers. I have read a few forums with comments on the amount of RPG Online games released in Korea, and Japan, that haven't and probably never will see American soil, it has happened alot in the past with console games too.
The rule of generalization is a fact I think, decide for yourselves though--
American companies make FPS type games, it's target market America, buys FPS type games--
Most, if not ALL, good RPG style games come from eastern countries, because their target market buys RPG style games--
anyways its late, I will post again tomorrow, night everyone, have a good slumber
Scott
edited my typos, er some hehe
(edited by SevenDevils on 06-12-02 01:46 AM) |
DaiSHi
Moderator
Since: 05-03-02
From: California
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7567 days
Last activity: 7567 days
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on the translating from korean code to japanese and english code... if they really wanted to save time, they could probalby write a quick java or whatever program to read the code in a .txt or .in file and do a quick translation... just a thought
i wasn't trying to bring thais or other cultures into the argument. basically, i was saying that they are going to pay most attention to their home country, than the next closest and easier to translate/communicate with culture (japanese) then lastly us, ebeta. i don't understand why they took on the task of maintaining 3 different servers if they seem to show some negligence and clearly-evident bias. maybe they only released english to get some us exposed to and interested in the game... don't give us everything, then we'll be begging for final or beta2 when/if we get it... just maybe a marketing ploy... i dunno, i'm Chinese, i'm not here to rag on any culture....
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Loki: DaiSHi 48/35 swordman, H.O.L.Y.Merchant OC, Robbin'Hood 37/27 Thief, HOLYFistsOfFury 18/12 Puncholyte
12003 exp and counting... || good luck to everyone who has finals
Flower girls are the cutest... but not as cute as my Tina |
Quanta
 
Since: 04-09-02
From: Somewhere
Since last post: 7949 days
Last activity: 7701 days
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You should probably all know by now that if you took all the GRF files from every version, they'd all be nearly identical...the differences are related to translations and such...there's at least one or two extra files in the English version because Gravity had ultimately decided not to take the Korean map names or skill names out and referenced them to a different file (hence why some files have a _e.txt on the end). So on the GRF level, the translation is what slows things down. I'm pretty sure the executables would be nearly identical as well except for a few file references. As for character dialogue or monster names, those are server-side if I'm not mistaken.
If you don't believe me, then I'll tell you this: I have some sprites from Sakray back when the new headgears had been introduced...I also have all the heads and such that were included, as well as some monster sprites, including the new Bigfoot sprite (Bigfoots WILL uppercut one day! BWA HA HA! XD).
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SevenDevils
Since: 06-11-02
From: US
Since last post: 8197 days
Last activity: 8183 days
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Hey, Im not quite sure if this is fact, fiction or even faked, but I was at Ragnarok Source forums, and I saw a link somewhere about the future plans of Gravity, and it made sense to me.
Basicly it was posted on the Gravity BBS some time ago, Christy states that the end plan for the RO servers are like this, Korean RO will be hosted and maintained by Gravity, and its staff, this is why they have support 24/7 and a larger workforce, not sure how the Jpn RO server will be treated, but the eRO server is going to be sold to a 3rd party company to be maintained and supported by that said company. So in the end, Gravity knows they cant handle all 3 servers, they have known this, and this idea, whether rumor, fact, or fiction, still makes ALOT of sense. This is also why Gravity only has "supposedly" Christy working as EnglishGM. I do however find it difficult to believe she puts so much effort into the game, if for a fact they are planning on selling the source code, and server base altogether.
Anyways, this isnt a confirmed fact, just some things I read, and ideas on those posts. Lemme hear what everyone else thinks of that
Scott |
MingShun
Since: 05-10-02
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7615 days
Last activity: 7615 days
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If that's true, then Gravity won't be the target of discontent anymore ^^. Not that RO is a bad game, it just has its flaws. Hope the company that inherits the game does a good job, I don't wanna see RO die a quick death because it doesn't.
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Wish I had a sig pic.... |
DaiSHi
Moderator
Since: 05-03-02
From: California
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7567 days
Last activity: 7567 days
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and now i hear about grav putting up a chinese server... guess less attention for ebeta...
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Loki: DaiSHi 48/35 swordman, H.O.L.Y.Merchant OC, Robbin'Hood 37/27 Thief, HOLYFistsOfFury 24/17 Puncholyte
12381 exp and counting... || good luck to everyone who has finals
Flower girls are the cutest... but not as cute as my Tina |
Ysuki
 
Since: 05-03-02
From: Illinois, USA
Since last post: 8123 days
Last activity: 8114 days
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| Another company owns it not Gravity. That other company bougth the right to use RO for Cbeta ans was said for closed beta2 from hearing that stuff from RS and that person translated anyway. |
Sironin
Since: 05-17-02
Since last post: 8141 days
Last activity: 7825 days
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Well Gravity could easily sell North American publishing rights to another company as well as Distribution rights with plenty of royalties and make TONS of money off it without having to go to the trouble of interacting with an english support staff or any negative publicity... It's basically what I might do if I ever had to publish a game in another country and didn't feel like dealing with all the flak.
Another programming thing to put forth. Another reason why they might hold off on immediately patching the english and japanese servers is that it is MUCH easier for them to test out whether or not problems arise with the patches. Occasionally though, we notice that they go ahead and patch all three anyway and things cycle down immediately (remember when patches come in sets of 5?) Most likely patches come in two categories. A programmer futzing with things (lots of patches quickly), or an artist or text person releasing an update (programmer tests it on local server first before cycling down... he doesn't know wtf is in the update... must check to make sure it works). Then of course as I said before, you can't just run text through an auto-translater (lol at babelfish). So those updates take time.
I hope they fix more of the memory leaks... It's not the worst, but I could put it up there in the 'hall o fame'. Honestly, some people still run win98, hint hint. |
MingShun
Since: 05-10-02
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7615 days
Last activity: 7615 days
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I dunno, wouldn't a Korean C++ programmer have to know english to use it? I look at the internet addresses of foreign sites, and they are in english. How are they related? They both originated in the U.S. so I'm thinking that anything used in a foreign country will have to follow an American standard. In other words, english commands, addresses, and syntax.
Looks like all the programmers have to translate is what the player sees. So it ain't as much to translate.
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Wish I had a sig pic.... |
Sironin
Since: 05-17-02
Since last post: 8141 days
Last activity: 7825 days
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Well simply put, C++ is a language of it's own. Knowing C++ doesn't mean you know english at all. Also for certain things, Foreign characters can be used. Such as certain variables and directory names.
And it still is a lot to translate depending on what you're trying to update (there is quite a lot of material in beta 2 that would need translating). Also the availability of their translater may be a factor. My point was that instead of being instantaneous updates (from programmer to server), the programmer has to give text to a translater, the translater works on it, the programmer has to put it back in the code, and THEN it can go in a patch. (in the mean time, the programmer has already patched the korean server). It may be that if they are using a consultant to translate, rather than an inhouse translater, they save up their text until they accumulate 1hr blocks so as to save money. This would further delay patches. If their Japanese team has fluent english/japanese speakers/readers/writers, then there would be less of a need for delay and that would explain the speediness of their patches. |
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